I agree, this purchase is an entirely waste of money. A perfect example of politicians who have found what they consider to be extra money, so they must spend it, even if the item is not needed. I would like to know how many times in the past, the township has requested use of the county vehicle and it was not available? Show us the records.

I'll answer you Brian
First - the cost of the vehicle is from CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT money, Not general funds (that pay salaries). Capital items must have a 5 year or greater lifespan to qualify - does this? Yes.
Second - Do you know what a fire truck or ambulance costs nowadays? a fire engine or ladder truck that carries the water and tools along with the men to the fire costs $300K up to $1M. An Ambulance costs $125K-$150K and you get 5 years use out of an ambulance, you get 15-20 years from a firetruck. So in reality is this sooo costly? nah - didnt think so.
Third - There's ONE vehicle available for the County, 36 towns, 530 sq miles, over Half a million people, and you need ONE vehicle to cover all that? Camden City - soon to be the O.K. Corral every day when the new targets, I mean cops are on the street, think they wont be using it every day when being shot at like, well target practice? Cmon you ever hear a band aid only covers one wound? What happens if your the lucky second caller? Umm - thats right! Gloucester County has one in Clayton - thats only 30 minutes from here - we can hold on. Do you remember the Bank robbery in CA. where the gunmen used armor piercing bullets and shot all the cops? It only takes one nut to create a Sandy Hook, Columbine, Aurora or Virginia Tech... Why not here?
Dave Harkins? he was a volunteer for fire dept for over a decade. He's earned my respect and I'll believe ANYTHING he says over some talking head from the County.

Jimm, last I checked, fire trucks and ambulances were used more than 10 times a year(amount of times the county's truck was used by municipalities). Anyone who uses school shootings as an excuse to buy a COOL TOY should be struck down for using the tragic deaths of these innocent people for this personal purchase of a COOL TOY!! If you have any brains you'll realize that this equipment is worthless in those situations and to suggest otherwise is simply a scare tactic. Does Pine Hill pay Us for our swat team? Because other than parades, that is where this truck will spend most of its time. (What little time that is) as far as you buddy Harkins is concerned, if he actually had half a brain and didn't stand up in a public forum and tell lie after lie, this wouldn't have even come close to a newsworthy story. He's a liar and obviously not very intelligent if he can't think before he speaks!!

Well Jimm, Joe pretty much summed it up. All apples & oranges. I really have no comment to your reply as you have offered up nothing of validity to the argument. You too must have just drank the Kool-Aid and for that I feel sorry for you. So you can keep believing the lies that you are fed. Just to clarify I am not a "county head" rather someone who knows more than the average citizen about this situation. I am the one brave enough to put my name out there and call these bullies out on it. There is no place for it in our profession. So Jimm you haven't answered my question but thanks for taking the time to try.

Joe "Summed it up" ? Anyone who buys a "cool toy" for a school shooting... Height of stupidity commentary if I ever heard it. Gee lets see the FBI, NJSP, US Marshals in Philly and Newark ALL use "Armored Vehicles". And so you know Brian, as far as your "profession" I'd love to know what badge you claim to wear... They used armored vehicles to transport the Ft Dix 5 to Federal Court in Camden... Obviously it was a cool enough "toy" for them...

Again you ignored one of the pertient parts, Capital Funds cannot be used on General Fund items... Obviously you don't already know this has to pass the DCA - So your apples and oranges comment is asinine and reveals your ignorance of the law you profess to be a part of.

I dont expect Joe Shoemaker to be aware of the Colombine report, but if you were ***really*** a public safety professional you would know the Columbine findings "strongly reccomended" armored vehicles for public place incidents to remove victims and bystanders from the lines of fire... They used firetrucks in Colorado - which I'm sure you know are not bullet resistant... and we have ONE to cover a 530 square miles... another point for you hotshot, One vehicle and how many SWAT teams in the County, Three? Five? Ten? and how do you train all these groups with a single vehicle and NO BACKUP vehicle? What about maintenance? I'm sure this vehicle is operational 24/7/365 ... Idiot - if anyones drinking the kool-aid its you.

Hey Jimm, are you really trying to compare GT with all those agencies you mentioned? GT doesn't have to deal with anything close to what the Feds, the state and big cities deal with. Last I checked, you can't drive a truck into a school or theater to save people. If you waste time evacuating people while shooting is going on, well, you're just plain stupid! I would think the idea would be to stop the bad guy as fast as possible then worry about the wounded. Probably don't need an armored truck to get victims out once the bad guy is dealt with.

Joe my man , THANKS YOU FOR STATING THE TRUTH .........O'my Jimm you better work on a comeback cause as I see it Joe just took your heart with the Truth .............

Joe Shoemaker,
Ok I'll type this slowly so you "might" understand... The credo of first responders is Preservation of Self, Life and Property in that order. Yes this is a fact.
Removing the threat prior to saving life is not always possible - especially if they are "in cover" ie; out of plain sight. People with military training or SWAT training understand that the purpose of response is to rescue survivors and victims PRIOR (that means beforehand) to engaging the suspects/enemy without exposing those survivors and victims or usually "civilians" to unnecessary risk. This is called mitigating a threat. They naysayers are correct in saying it does not prevent the incident. B U T the vehicle does assist in mitigating the incident. Thats why those "big" agencies have these specialized vehicles that we don't. Glo Twp is 8 miles from Camden City, Where do those big agencies get thier business? Camden, Philly, Newark, Trenton - only a train,bus or car trip away! Joe your 5% knowledge makes you 95% DANGEROUS to others! This is why you should leave decisions like this in better and more capable hands.

Billy Madison, I mean Brian - your a County of Camden employee - why am I not surprised? LOL! oh so Parochial!

Wow Jimm maybe we are just talking about two different things. In fact I know we are but you are muddling the facts to try to get people on your side. That's deceptive and lacking in integrity. Of course an armored vehicle would help when you have to evacuate people and the bad guy is hiding nearby or something. But, when he or she is in the process of killing people(like what you and your boys keep telling the people to scare them) wouldn't it make more sense to run to the bad guy or girl and stop them? I know it's a morbid thought but I would think the thing to do would be to stop the bad guy or girl first then help the victims. While you are saving one and showing off your cool toy, there could be 10 more being executed. Good job though, remember "if it saves one life it's worth it" meanwhile 10 more are dead.
Your justification on comparing GT with big agencies is a joke by the way. "Glo. Twp. Is 8 miles away from Camden". Well if you're that worried maybe we should just put a fence around the Twp. and secede from the county, state and union!

Joe took off the Gloves ..............Nice and if your scared go get a DOG ........That what someone told me one day ...

Joe this is what makes you arrogant and easy to mock...

"Run to the bad guy" ok wiseguy lets use a neutral site - Sterling High School in Somerdale. Its got over 30 classrooms, an auditorium, several closets, a gym and how many exits? Where do you "run too"??? I'm sure the bad guy is standing still waiting for you to come up and arrest him... laughable There is no magic in this - you have to clear each room and hallway while maintaining perimeters so he/they are contained, that takes how many cops in addition to the SWAT unit? Are you getting the picture yet? Muddled?? Thats why everyone from the FBI on down TRAINS to save lives of themselves first then civilians/victims... not playing Bruce Willis in Die Hard like your advocating... In real lIfe you follow your training so you can go home to your family... understanding yet buddy???? This is why your DANGEROUS - you would not get very far in law enforcement with your outlook - you would be given the meter maid / crossing guard assignment when stuff happened.

As far as being 8 miles from Camden - its a statistical fact. Also the crime reports show an increase in drug trade in G.T. Sure stick your head in the sand and refute reality. Drug Dealers are businessmen and will protect thier investment, only they cant use ADT and the Police Dept. to do it. The drug possession money - WHERE did all that money come from. . . Right here in G.T. No kidding ALL OF IT and we only got a percentage of the total. unmuddled yet?

Ok this has to be the last time I respond to this. Quite frankly Jimm (with two M's) you are a coward who uses this forum in anonimty to name call which no one has time for, but then again you're a vlounteer fireman so I'm not surprised. A real tough guy. You have absolutely NO idea what your talking about so whomever is funneling you your information tell them to stop cause it's all bad. No one ever mentioned fire trucks or ambulances, well except you Jimm (with two M's) probably cause your always washing one or the other. No one said the ARV was a toy, just that it would be used as one. I'm sure you're happy about that because it will often be at the fire dept. that you volunteer. Maybe they'll let you play with the flashing lights. My point Jim (with two M's) is that if Glo. Twp PD wants ten of these vehicles go at it. Just don't use my tax money and LIE to me and other Glo. Twp. residents in order to get it. I will say again NO INTEGRITY!!! See that Jimm (with two M's) I did all of that without calling you a single name. Well I did call you volunteer fireman and that's pretty degrading. I'm sure you'll respond to this cause I mean what else would you do you are obviously unemployed, but try to be a little more original next time. Maybe put your name up COWARD!!!

I guess having a Camden County Sheriffs Dept. bomb squad is really necessary too. I mean doesnt the state police and the fbi have one too. Really, how many bombs have gone off in Camden County. Talk about a hypocrite.

Lets start with your "quotes"
"I really have no comment to your reply as you have offered up nothing of validity to the argument"

Ohhh because you have "FACTS" - well BRIAN I too have Facts and people who can back it up with dates and times. Lets start - the Bearcat wasn't the Sherriff's Dept vehicle - it in part was drawn up and spec'ed by somebody who you called a liar in this very post. He along with a host of others who were the ones screwed over IMHO when it was stolen and given to Sherriff Billingham by the pols... Bet you weren't there for that either. I was actually in one of the meetings where it was announced...

"Just to clarify I am not a "county head" rather someone who knows more than the average citizen about this situation."
Again This is where you outed yourself to anyone with knowledge, I was talking about Dan Kaeshen the "Talking Head" and his half truths...How the Bearcat responded before the local SWAT? and they beat the SWAT team to its own local.. In G.T.??? HA HA HA!!!

Coward? Anytime Anyplace - I got nothin to lose. My employer was similar to yours, but I'm finished with that, and I'll be happy to explain face to face.
Yeah your scorn about the FF... We understand you need the yellow stripes on your pants to align yourself correctly for crossing guard duty. ( now I AM ribbing ya...) Tell Dave Harkins you want to meet me. he'll set it up. I believe in PersSec.

maybe next year a tank on every corner

I guess I'm a fool then....

Totally inappropriate. How many toys do the boys have to have!!!

Maybe we can park the armored vehicle inside the Police Station and that worthless excuse of a Chief can hide in it next time his "procedures" lead to another officer being shot.

well maybe we can rent it too camden city

Obviously you missed the January 2009 incident on Fox Meadow Drive where a drugged out lunatic who shot over 40 bullets at his neighbors houses, and threatened to shoot at the responding officers. Glou. Twp. SWAT officers had to wait for an armored vehicle to come to from a neighboring county, and they evacuated 10 houses full of people with it.

How about the rapist predator that tried to shoot at US Marshals Task Force in Cherrywood in 2010. He was shot by a state trooper and a GT SWAT officer who were assisting the US Marshals:
http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/state/crime-spree-suspect-naquan-johnson-killed-by-us-marshalls-during-arrest-in-gloucester

These are just the things that made the news. You should educate yourself or put your head back in the sand.

Hey James, that bomb squad you mentioned above, didn't they help during that incident? If not for them that incident may still be going on now with GT standing outside scratching their heads wondering what to do. Think about the big picture before you open your mouth.

Norcross/Pay to Play money makes that happen. Republicans just can't compete without similar funding.

i bet only about 15 per cent of the people of this twp reads any of this , thas why they get reelected

Been asking for road repair for about 3 years now. Still waiting and running up car repair costs.

He won't be able to tell you, because there has never been such a time. He is a hack and a disgrace and a joke at the NJSACOP.

some one getting a nice kickback

Schu,
Take the time to read the County rebuttal... of the 10 responses (yeah right!) 2 were in Glo Twp. There are 36 municipalites and we had two out of ten by Camden County's own admission... Then lets look at the claims of Dan Kaeshen the "County Talking Head"
1) None of those concerns are valid, Camden County spokesman Dan Keashen said. Responding to the assertion that the sheriff's department doesn't work around the clock, Keashen said, "That's completely untrue. The sheriff's department is a 24/7 operation There's Another "Slick Willie" comment - what it DOESN'T say is the Bearcat is MANNED or STAFFED at Lakeland, or WHERE the officer who drives it is coming from... Say Camden to Lakeland to the Scene = how long??? Wait for it, it gets even better...
2)"The vehicle was delivered all 10 times, and all deliveries took place even before the tactical teams' response to the location," he said W O W !!!!!!! Thats impressive! How did that happen in Glo Twp? The GTPD has its own dispatch center - The Sherriffs Dept uses Central... That means that Glo Twp called for the Bearcat BEFORE activating thier own SWAT unit... Ya think that really happened???? Ha Ha Ha!!!!! Now it says ALL deliveries BEFORE the arrival of the SWAT unit "every time".... HA!!! HA!!! HA!!! If your willing to believe that, your more gullible... Wait! I got a bridge I can sell ya too!!!

Danny boy are you reading this? That heart in your hand is your own sucka! Please Believe! I Do!

(story continued from above)

Department Manager: Hmm, that sounds too hard. I really just want my own equipment.

Company President: Well, even if I would agree that another piece of this equipment is needed, wouldn’t it make more sense for our main office to make the purchase? That way, all the departments in the county could benefit. Further, have you exhaustively searched the secondary markets for a less costly alternative? I would suspect that somewhere - military surplus, government surplus, or elsewhere – something is available that could still effectively serve your purpose.

Department Manager: I really, really just want my own, new equipment.

Company President: You’re fired.

Gt citizen,
This is getting to be almost comical, I've heard it and repeated it too many times to count. The school boards have thier own taxing ability - the municipality only has a say when the budget is defeated - even then the State School Commissioner can overturn the municipalities decision... If you want something for the schools the school board is the only one you can approach to make that change. Want better phones - better security? It comes out of the school part of your taxes which is more than your municipal taxes. They are totally separate issues and your mixing apples and corn in this case.

To many man in blue and I had to leave . Don't be pumping you chest out little guy ...;-)

That is a great point that the people of GT need to start getting more involved since the government officials are making such decisions. Hopefully this example is enough to make people realize that. Its unfortunate that so many people have other commitments like multiple jobs, etc and cannot participate.

Don't be a hater, DG; I'm trying just like you.

Hate is a weak emotion Paul .It's a sign of failure

so I don't hate

Mark you make a good Point would you like to run for Mayor . I think u will be better then Dave

sorry no i wouldnt

please .....'SIR'

Yea ...This just in the Top heavy Chiefs in town are meeting with the Mayor and his top staff to see if we can Get a Fighter Jet at Cross Keys AIRPORT so we can protect the APC from the air It's the only weakness and we SHOULD as a town of Protect even the APC .......Give me a Break it's people like you is why nothing changes for the better .......PS state your real name ...........SMH ...People like yourself are just lost sheep god BLESS U ... BUY all the Protection you want. I need NONE.........., Because you see FAKE one I don't live in FEAR ......I live to LIVE . .....Just care , I do

Alright, Johnny-come-lately "Great Job Gt", please paint the scenario in which I, as a resident of GT, will need the "tactical armored police vehicle" to make sure I'm safe. Don't strain yourself thinking about it, just shout the first intelligent thought that comes to mind.

I would like people to take the time to watch these videos. They are hard to watch as it is video captured of an El Cajon Officer getting shot by a mad man who lived on a nice quiet suburban cul-de-sac. The mad man just killed his daughter and his mother. He then threatened his unsuspecting neighbor, who was trapped in the area and had to watch the officer get shot in head with a rifle, luckily he survived (watch the second video). He then sets his house on fire. Watch how the small town SWAT has to respond to get the neighbors out (using an armored rescue vehicle) and how they could not approach for fear of them getting shot. Imagine if these cops were your husband, son, cousin, or friend.

Watch the second video and see if you think that civilian interviewed thought he would "ever need and armored vehicle".

Just watch and and try to imagine yourself stuck there, and imagine if there residents think they need this vehicle now. Don't think it can't happen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRhBs4cDWyk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYMnpqq3Kzk

James Island
Take a deep breath. I don't need to watch your scary videos to know the police get shot at. I get it! There are really bad people out these. BUT, good people get hurt and have their civil rights violated for perfectly good excuses. I am disturbed by the increasing trend that we feel we need to militarize our police and your scary videos don't help me to feel any more secure that the police always do the right thing, always and everytime. My concern is now they can make an error with an AR and an armored vehicle. Joe public won't stand a chance and won't be around to whine about it.

Thanks Deb ...Hey someone go check this guy out talk about Kool Aid drinking .........

Lead the way.
Gee whiz, three whole comments and you've already established yourself as a leader in the township with the wisdom you've displayed in your two comments here. I can't wait to see what other gems of wisdom fall from your lips.

Gt
When I move to Arbourwood then you will need to cover my tax bill to support your police wishes. Here $10,000 per year. You can handle that now can't you. Or maybe my opinion might count? You don't need to agree but you do need to respect my right to speak my mind.

How does a vehicle parked in the parking lot of an apartment complex help an officer entering an apartment where there is an armed suspect? Maybe you should read up on the primary use of such a vehicle and then pose your questions.
I'm not going to mention the recent problems we've had at our police complex other than to say that an "armored tactical police vehicle" would have served no useful purpose.
Finally, don't worry about moving to Camden, Camden is moving to GT. We will soon be partnering with Camden's police force under the title of the Camden County Metro Force. Once that happens you might want to post your comments about the success of that shared agreement. Just remember this, we have been told that we will not be part of that but time will tell and given that the Metro headquarters is slotted for our township and the desires of George Norcross for this effort, I don't see how we will be able to avoid it.
Do I have any say in where my tax dollars should go? I've never quite heard your take on it. What country is it we are living in, again?
Oh, one last thing, in the vein of your friendly comments, why should we be the only ones to enjoy such advice? I, therefore, invite you to shut your mouth, as well.

On another subject...you turned in your recycling can...
Oh man, that is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time. Thanks for the break from having to discuss such mundane things as the purchase of a quarter-of-a-million dollar BearCat and rather turn our attention to your ability to single-handedly thwart the Mayor's Green Plan.

First off who are you , Fake one to tell us we can't question were our money goes . "REALLY" ..........god bless the USA for people like you today . WE HAVE FAMILY strugging to make ends meet AS these laying Puppets make there friends RICh ........Look into BLUE SKY and how much many they are getting from the TAXPAYERS and I don't take to kind to the DEPUTY CHIEF Lieing ..........SMH with rich pink can turn in people like you nothing will be left for our kids but a bunch of BULLIES on da payroll ........Now thank you for you comment but when the top brass start to lie who can we trust . Thanks GT police for the mistrust ..........

Seems to me that the most dangerous place to be in our township is in the confines of our police station. Monthly stats so far, 1 dead, 2 others shot, all while following procedures. I was really surprised that the chief held a press conference and it wasn't even a politically motivated oportunity, unless of course you consider covering his and the mayors back side politically motivated.

Your a Prince!

I am just not getting where all these 'new-to-Patch' respondents are coming from. This whole subject of the "armored tactical police vehicle" seems to have brought people out of the woodwork.
It's not my style to reference songs like some, who have even posted YouTube links, especially since I doubt many actually follow the linsk, but I couldn't help myself from at least referencing a few lines here:

"There's talk on the street; it sounds so familiar;
Great expectations, everybody's watching you...
There's talk on the street, it's there to remind you,
that it doesn't really matter which side you're on...
Where you been lately? There's a new kid in town...
Oh, my, my, There's a new kid in town,
just another new kid in town."

Really will maybe that drug dealing money can be paid for people to clean da bathroom in our school . TVJ you don't want to battle me "SIR" ......PS I don't believe in the Drug war like yourself I knew a lot of people who died from drugs and one of the main reason is they live in shame .....I hope to god you will understand to live in fear and have this Government rape the poor is not a GOVERNMENT I stand for just look since Hollywood Stach got into office . Crime rate up Home prices down PEOPLE leaving in a heartbeat to get out of this town . ALL i have to say is WAKE Up it was nice to see over 50% of the police force in the Council chamber on MONDAY . Should they all not be out patroling the bad lands . ...........

Please Paul leave the you tubes and songs to me ....http://youtu.be/bqrypsYtHkE

but I'll take your help in writting , I'm so bad at writting but getting to the truth and speaking from the heart .....I must say that what I do ......Just care , I do ...PS who would like to go see these Air reports in our Schools tomorrow with me have to go to the Trans Office "Really I thought the head Chief in charge said they were at ever SCHOOL does anyone in this town HAVE a clue " Yo , Yo , Yo lies that all this leadership does is LIE and how dare you MAYOR STACH ever call me a LAIR ... Now go wipe your face and let's have a NICE debate ......Could be fun..............For real if you would like to go see if they can give me a good air report for ALL the schools The white van has room and to the Loring Fleming Moms and dad that were caught out of the blue and have to hear about your Good leader of your SChool LEAVE IN THE MIDDLE of da year ......Well lets say those people down in the South of Town show up in numbers to save there STAR ...........When is this town EVER going to learn to come together for the GOOD for all ...........Peace out and remember to care

You really don't have to harbor a fear that the vehicle will be turned on us to question the need for such. I've visited the Lenco website which allows you to see the bare essentials about these vehicles. Anything beyond that requires a secret user-name and password and I guarantee you can't get one. As for the use of these vehicles as described on the site, they are used to protect the occupants from gunfire and/or explosions. They are essentially transport vehicles. If you're riding through the streets of Beirut, this is your baby. Bringing it closer to home, if you needed to get to a site that took you into South-Central L.A., this might come in handy. How does that translate to transporting officers to a crime site in GT? Once on site, where the officers need to disembark from the vehicle, how will this vehicle provide any protection other than to someone inside of it?
I've heard all the talking points about how we should be willing to give our law enforcement personnel anything they need to keep us and them safe in the exercise of their duties but no one will give me any answers as to how that will actually be accomplished....unless one is to believe that we live in a war zone. Is that what we are being asked to believe; that our township is so dangerous that if a situation arises there are going to be people on the street out to get the respondents and so they need this super protection on the way to the crime site?

Thanks alot, I feel so much better. Here I was agraid I could become a target. Whew!

Well if that the case ME , Then there should be a line at the DOOR at 44 Greens way . See ME !!!!!!!! it's not about me ....It's about us all . No Justice, No Peace and I'm so tried of fighting . Can't we all just come together to make a better GT and why does the BULLIES think they always have to lead .Relax this aint Drama club LOOK at you Mayor .Stop already . Now listen up PEEPS . Does this WHOLE crop of LEADER that we the people help make are a bunch of Lairs and cheats ........SMH no They are not Mislead "yes" ............ The Time is this year to make the need change for the better and people need to stop worring about just ME ..........It's time to get our Town back from the Lairs and cheats .............

Vote them OUT or beg ,plead and hope that they change their Greedy ways .............

awesome

Debbie,
i'm not sure I would use someone from the ACLU as an expert opinion on law enforcement procedures... ;)

Again perception rules - are we talking about a motor vehicle stop? Certainly that is not an appropriate "military" style operation. Now if you are talking about barricaded subject with hostages and or imminent threat to life, then military style response is appropriate for the propection of the responders, the victims, and finally the property. Remember the outcry about Waco TX? House burned to the ground? several people died? Well nobody seems to remember that the responders were still being shot at "while the fire burned"... The ACLU spearheaded a multimillion wrongful death suit and guess what? It never made it past the grand jury... Thats what makes me laugh about these whiners... They have no clue and watch too many "Die Hard" movies instead of obtaining pertient information before the knee jerk reactions...

That's a pretty one-sided view of what happened in Waco. There was plenty of blame to go around but helpless women and children were killed in that conflagration and try as you may you can't put all the blame on Koresh. Given your criticism above it appears that you lack quite a bit of objectivity yourself.

Jimm always remember that someones knee-jerk reaction is based on perception. Someones perception can be their reality. There should always be room for all points of view. We don't need to agree but we should always respect and have meaningful dialog.

Paul,
Since you graciously agreed to post to me again - I do blame Koresh and his people. They were given a warrant by the Sherriff's officer - and then shot him. That is illegal anywhere and the consequences were changable for 2 DAYS by/for his followers. they chose not to peaceably surrender... Remember they shot at the responders for two days before the teargas was deployed. I do not argue the canister started the fire - I argue they are responsible for the initiation AND the subsequent results, which is exactly what the Grand Jury's findings were. Regrettable but justice was served - lethal force is supposed to be a deterrent - not a final solution, but once deployed - it MUST be used or the usefullness of it becomes moot. Anarchy inevitibly follows loss of control in society.

Debbie
Your point is true and valid - I just wish more people took the time to reflect before "jumping" into a topic. The Bearcat is a great example - Those who are involved with the design and implementation of the original "County" Bearcat had the vehicle politically unsurped from them and given to the Sherriffs Dept. My Perception, but as Brian Madison said I too have more than a passing knowledge of the history and background of the vehicle and its status. The "Slick Willie" half-truths uttered by Kaeshen, trying to deflect what was viewed as criticism by Dave Harkins is unbelieveable to me... Ask GTPD for a meeting to discuss what the story is...

Jimm
In these type of situations, I have learned to believe 1/2 of what you hear. The rest of it is smoke and mirrors on both sides. There is apparently a rivalry between the 2 departments for what the correct reasons are. I got it. Not hard to see. That is where communications and negotiations come in. I never said it would work but I absolutely got the impression there was no real attempt made. What I find an insult toward me was GT poice chief after the meeting bragging that now GT has 2 of these things at thier disposal. I felt the salt getting rubbed in my direction and there is no excuse for it. That is disrespectful to the township residents considering I am one and felt his comment was directed at me. No sorry Jim, there is nothing for me to talk to GT Police Dept about. None of that was necessary.

Jimm, my understanding is that Koresh went out daily to jog and the authorities had plenty of opportunities to approach him but did not avail themselves of the easy way. I don't think the method they employed needs any further comment. You may believe whatever you want about the situation but the fact is that somebody got worked up for a confrontation and the whole mess exploded in their face. Not only did they kill women and children bout they sacrificed their own and put their own at risk when they could have handled it very differently. Suffice it to say that they created a disaster and were party to a mass murder worse that Sandy Hook. Now who wants to dispute that?

Paul,
Referring to Mass murder in the Waco instance, by the law it was signed and sealed by the Judge before the assault began... so by law NO.

As far as a group of adults that allowed 13-14 yr old girls to submit to sex and "marriages" to Koresh and his merry band of outlaws, thats addition by subtraction in my book and no loss to the gene pool. The surviving kids were so screwed up coming out of there, while it's sad I save my sympathy for truer victims than that. They were told repeatedly to leave the compound over 51 days (why I wrote +2 in the other post... I apologize) and failed to comply... to me that's called consequences not Mass Murder, Check some of Hitler's atrocities before using such a strong term IMHO... Can we go 60/40 on blame Koresh/Texas ??

Paul and Jimm. Please stop with the Waco back and forth. You guys may as well be debating the "grassy knoll"! You are not going to agree! Agree to disagree and lets move on, please. There is protcol around the use of an officers side arm. There is protocol around the use of an officers batton. Is there protocol around when swat teams are deployed against our citizens? Are there protcols around to protect me and my liberties from an armored vehicle coming at me or even seeing an ar-15 in hands of law enforcement. Here's a thought for you, The only time I hear about an assalt rifle with an extended magazine is when there is a mass shooting. The only time I see one is when I see pictures of a swat team. Humm. Extended magazines and all! WHAT ARE WE DOING!!!!!

Wow, Jimm, you're a man (?) of deep compassion...and I thought I was cynical but I don't hold a candle to you. Yes, sacrifice the children because, in your world, they were ruined and now worthless anyway. As for warrants...the power-hungry crowd that assembled at Waco had ample opportunity to approach Koresh while he was out and about but did not avail themselves of that opportunity. The ATF, FBI, et al, who had assembled outside of the Waco compound, had already suited and jack-booted up, the vests were on, and the guns were locked and loaded for bear. Along with all the worthless children that were murdered some of your precious ATF-FBI types gave their lives in the party that day...So, which is it, worthless or worth the sacrifice for the end result in your mind?
Blame assignment? I don't know the marching orders for the ATF and FBI but I would hope they include trying to defuse a situation first before escalating to violence. Locally here we had a suspect killed in the police processing room. That could have been avoided by procedures that would have precluded his access to a weapon. On a TV show last night, not that I would put a lot of stock in such, as the camera panned past a processing room in the police station I saw a sign on the door that stated no weapons were allowed in the room. Imagine if our GT officer processing Ed Jones had been unarmed. My best guess is that Jones would still be alive and our officers would not have suffered the pain of being shot.

You're not getting it, Deb. For me, Waco is not the issue. The only reason I wrote about ti was because Jimm brought it up. I, like, you am all about what's really going on.
Here's a question that needs to be asked to all those who want to ban 30 round clips. If you or your wife/husband are home with the three kids and multiple invaders come into your house to do you and yours harm are you content with dialing 911 and waiting? Are you content with a 5-or-6 round revolver? Or would you like a weapon with 30 rounds that can be used for close contact and get the job done?
These politicians are imbeciles and never see reality until it hits them in the face. The 2nd Amendment was made to keep us free and there is to be no infringement on that ability to guard that freedom whether it comes form a home intruder or government sanctioned intruder.
As for townships militarizing themselves, a concept that our council president mysteriously did not understand, I am very concerned about the direction GT is headed. Is it really that bad here? If so, maybe GT is not quite the wonderful place to live, work, and play we've been told and, as one citizen commented at council meeting, maybe we should be looking to move elsewhere.

The 2nd Amendment was not made to keep you free, only armed. The constitution was made to keep you free. All of it! We need to stop pointing to the 2nd amdendment as the constitution!

The thing I am attempting to bring out here is there is no place to move. As a society, our police forces in general are militarizing themselves with the financial blessing of Homeland Security. GT is not doing anything that Voorhees is not considering and Winslow will soon follow. I guess the general nature of population #'s provides townships more opportunity and $$. Stratford or Pine Hill are trying to hold-on to the local law enforcement they have supported for decades and cannot compete.

I'm sorry, but the 2nd Amendment is the only thing that stands between democracy and tyranny. Without the 2nd Amendment there would be nothing to guarantee the rest of the Bill of Rights. If you don't think we would be silent now (i.e, via the trashing of the 1st Amendment) if the 2nd Amendment were not in place you are sadly mistaken.
Disarm the people...silence the people...Republic R.I.P.

I'm not sure what your issue is, Debbie, because I think we tend to generally agree.

Debbie,
"Is there protocol around when swat teams are deployed against our citizens?"
Of course there is protocol, that is the Training I was talking about in the other posts. They are supposed to get 16 hours each month to keep current on the policies,tactics and liabilities of SWAT. The NJ Attorney Generals office issues directives to ALL police forces in the State on law enforcement policies and proceedures. It is certainly not foolproof or ever perfect so your ironclad guarantee of safety can't be made or kept by anyone...

"Are there protcols around to protect me and my liberties from an armored vehicle coming at me or even seeing an ar-15 in hands of law enforcement."

One of the greatest what-if questions, WHY would an armored vehicle & SWAT personnel carrying AR-15's be coming at you? What did you do? and if you STOP, obey thier commands, lay down on the ground, get handcuffed and go to the police station, you probably aren't DEAD... even if it is a terrible mistake - they likely will not shoot you if you don't do anything. Too many movies and boogeyman stories.

It IS an arms race - The drug dealers don't have to play by the rules, the crazies don't have to play by the rules, but GOD forbid if one of the "good guys" breaks the rules... A 30 round clip against multiple perps & your still dead Paul. You probably shot up your neighbors house too.

Okay, Jimm, I get it, forget about the 2nd Amendment...just because you think that's how it should be. How pathetic. If enough guys who thought like you were around when the country was being formed we wouldn't have to worry because there would be no country.
>> ... even if it is a terrible mistake - they likely will not shoot you...
That's comforting to know. I hope they don't accidentally shoot my dog either. But if they do...oh well, what the hey...Just get down on the ground and cower, after all, they are the police and deserve our undying respect no matter what.
Thanks for the lesson, Jimmmm.

funny Paul the 2nd amendment was made at a time that British were patrolling our streets and raping our women and daughters, taking over our homes and pillaging our livestock. It's outdated and needs to be Amended (no pun intended). There is no need for anyone in this day and age to own guns other then hunting guns. By the way you seem to be taking serious offense to the 2nd amendment you are proclaiming your devotion to when you say the police are not supposed to own weapons. Pretty hypocritical statement on your part. in fact as a 2nd amendment backer I find it odd that you would proclaim your devotion to the second amendment on its face, but your offended your police department is buying what a big gun? Don't be a dope they want the gun they will get the gun and there is nothing you can do about that. The only thing your personality and argument are doing is assuring the police they are making the right decision in purchasing such a destructive weapon. While people like you are able to mix in society unfettered they feel they may eventually need it.

hahaha

Debbie
Its very nice to meet you and I certainly agree with parts of the article. I also believe the public safety system is broken in Camden County. A countywide police force - I would say yes if the control over the system was taken away from the pols where the commissioners would have to be real live ACTIVE police officers elected from the towns for fixed terms and the budget voted on by the voters. This is Naive? Gullible? Sure is! But the current sham being perpetuated simply makes the County taxpayers pay for Camden's police, since Camden doesn't generate 5% of thier own tax obligations. The actual crime reports are a sham, half of the violent crime isn't reported as there is incredible pressure to hush it up so when the County Mounties fail then they jack up even more french-fry cops and we lose our locals as has been said many times on here. That would make me move long before any tax increase to keep our police - and yes I mean that!

Nice to meet you also, hope we can talk again, I am interested in learning more but for now this "horse" is down and out. Good Night. Catch me on facebook.

The cat is out of the bag...they will never go away. The most you can hope for is that they take ours away and than only the police and the criminals will have access to them.
Let's really cut through all the bull, I am no danger with an casualty weapon...the criminal is. So, why then does everyone want to infringe on my rights? And what do those who want to make the law use to protect themselves?
Finally, let's just drop the whole hunter/sportsman and self defense gibberish. The Second Amendment is about tyranny and how to keep it in check. You don't like the Law, get a 2/3-rds majority to agree and pass an Amendment.

Debbie,
I have a suggestion about the second amendment debate. when the Amendment was written there were no such things as AR-15's There were only muskets and pistols, no multiple shot weapons of any kind. These weapons were meant to be used for hunting, protection and for Militia use when called to arms... It was not changed when the technological advancements were made. The National Guard is today's militia, Keep the assault weapons at thier armories, shoot the assault weapons at National Guard ranges, put the weapons back when your done at the Armory. End of crazies having access to home stored weapons like Sandy Hook and several others. It does not solve or prevent every possible shooting scenario. but it defuses the arms race and the everybody gets to still have thier weapons. Hey we might even create/provide jobs for people to maintain the armories and weapons. The military has thier crazies too but from what I could find none of those weapons used came from thier armory stocks. Sounds safer than what we have today.

Not that tired old argument about muskets. In that vein, there's no need for freedom of speech anymore because when that was written there was no Internet.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it, Jimmmm? Maybe you should do a little reading about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the 2nd Amendment, specifically, before you try to opine about it. Wait, were you educated in the public school system? Okay, I get it.

You know you can express your views without insulting people. You really went too far this time by insulting everyone who went to public schools.

JIMM
Paul is correct though, the cat is already out of the bag. Better yet, the Jeannie won't go back in th.. STOP! you know what I mean. hehe. We cannot ask the survivalist's to give 'em up when our police use them? Isn't that a large part of their argument?
I gotta tell ya, I've spent way too much time on the internet about this whole subject of these armored vehicles and I can tell you that in every senario where the public has questioned the need for these things, the same answers are given ever time, ver-batum. That means "Talking Points". The barricaded person, hostage, front yard...... Ver-Batum. The only diffrence between GT and little town N. Dakota? Homeland Security $$. These things are everywhere, like they are dropping from the Govt. sky. I hope protcols are established to ensure public safety and liberty.

Universities are getting them? They are new just last year in NH, MASS, PA, DE, ND, UT, ME all the southern states in addition to actual tanks or gun turrets (no surprise). In Mass, they bragged to news media about the wholes underneath for dispersing chemical agents? JUST GOOGLE IT! I am not making this stuff up!

My nephew in NH is in law enforcement and he bragged to me on Facebook their NH tank will take out our GT tank. I told him Yeah? We have 2, bring it on. Then told him he smelled of Old Spice.
Just tryin to change the mood a little, sorry.

Sorry Paul, married to a public school teacher who works herself to death to ensure the best for our GT High School kids. Also, I was educated at Sterling High School and have managed a 35 year carreer with my education. That was not necessary...

Big Daddy, when I read ridiculous ideas that are borne out of ignorance, usually self-imposed, I use sarcasm to respond to show forth such ideas for what they are. As for public schools...I, unfortunately, spent four years there myself. The fact is that the public schools have become institutions of propaganda adhering to outcome based techniques rather than teaching independent thinking in a real atmosphere of learning. You can't stand the heat?

So, Debbie, you've managed a 35-year career without implementing your education with anything else that what you learned at Sterling...Amazing.
BTW, I own, and support the ownership of, guns and do not consider myself a survivalist. I have raised a family of six and have worked hard and paid my taxes for 40-years. I do take umbrage about the way that the government is attempting to walk all over us. Does that make me a survivalist?
So, is that type of stereotyping the kind of objective thinking you learned at Sterling or did it take years of study to form those narrow-minded opinions?

So how does he respond? More insults from beginning to end. Of course you are above all of us. Just ask you, you'll be happy to tell us.

Get a little bit thicker skin, Big Daddy. The way I read it is that Debbie was passing around the insults the way she throws around the term survivalist and how she pictures anybody that disagrees with her view on guns as radical. Hey, do you hear me crying? It is very instructive to find out about myself in Debbie's continual innuendos...She appears to l know more about me than I do. If you agree with her you'll definitely never agree with me. So, are you guilty?

What makes you think everything is about you. First of all, I don't enuuendo. Second you have absolutely no idea what my view is on guns, I haven't shared it with you. You have assumed you know and we all know what that means!!!!. The endless defiant insulting rhretoic and attacks toward people voicing any opinion, not to mention unnecessary and disrespectful ennuendo's come mostly from you. You think I have insulted you? Not yet, but if you insist.
No, I don't believe you are a survivalist, not in the real term anyway. You are what is referred to as a wanna-be! You sir, would run short of breath wrestling into your camo gear and probably shoot yourself in the foot! So, I don't really recommend you try handling those guns you pretend are so precious. Others here are correct, you just love to sit here and hurl insults at people. Your a real Prince. Oh. and obviosly a scholar.

Sorry, but I kinda liked you.

There's a lot I could say, Debbie, but I just erased it all and decided to pass with this last word regarding your comments on my so-called insults...look to thyself

and that what common sense people are saying ..........Now a 1/4 of a million is chump change to all the LLC that rob the township taxpayers everyday OMG what does BLUE SKY do for the township again ......SMH ...OMG we are talking MILLIONS maybe our police should start doing there JOB and lock some people up at City Hall . .........A government that feeds the PEOPLE LIES time and time again must be replace . PEOPLE state the truth and you will be FREEEEEEE............No need to lie if you don't know the answer just act like the COUNCIL does ,they look at you with a clueless I don't care face and hope that it goes away .............. That not how real LEADERS handle things ......Now people of GT you have a big wake up call . Keep the CLUELESS leadership in office in 2013 or replace them ALL .......Now were is the GTGOP .........I might have to change my voting membership as an American again .

Hear , Hear

WHAT are WE going to do about it

What do you mean by selling HOMES at an accelerated rate? Out of 23,500 homes in Gloucester Twp, I bet you could not provide 1 home address that was "SOLD" by Gloucester Twp for taxes. So that is 23500 to 1 odds your getting to prove that your not a liar. Lets see if you are telling the truth or not. https://wipp.edmundsassoc.com/Wipp0415/#taxPage19827

Sybil, where have you been? Patch reported and published around December the latest list of homes and businesses going up for tax sale. There were hundreds of them. Been going on for a long time. All you have to do to get on that list is be 30 days late in December. You can check with Patch for the article/list. Welcome to Gloucester Township.

You not getting bullied , You earn my RESPECT fight for what you feel is RIGHT ....Now Keep caring .......I do